Philips AL161

Dear radiomuseum friends,

I have been researching for the last 7 weeks,, unsuccessfully to determine the original tube configuration and background for this unusual small wooden cabinet table radio that I bought from a gentleman in Argentina.


The dial has 2 wave bands ONDA CORTA (from 5.7 to 16.8 MC); and
ONDA LARGA (from 535 to 1450KC). The 2 small upper knobs have
the Philips logo embossed on them. The larger dark brown knobs may
or may not be original.


Note that the speaker faces toward the top of the cabinet, and there is
a small sheet of asbestos on the right side near the current regulator
socket. The ID plate is made of a plastic material and is enlarged below.
Obviously the rear panel would have been of great importance, since this
little radio operates with the "hot chassis". . . . . making it quite dangerous
to operate without securing the openings. Even the mountings for the
chassis to the cabinet verify this.

When I received the radio from the seller in Argentina, someone had
placed a 6C6 tube within the early European octal side-pin socket
located between IFT1 and IFT2. All 5 tube sockets are the European
octal side-pin, and the current regulator socket is the typical 4-pin.


Several components either on top of the chassis, or the bottom identify a
manufacturer from the United States. The markings on the capacitors appear to have been "darkened out". The red cylindrical resistors I am familiar with - some
have the ratings identified with an apparent date code, and the 6
smaller ones are marked 59. and a small triangle. The tube filaments
are definitely in series - the continuity check (with small jumpers attached
to pins 2-3) confirms this.


I have MANY MANY notes and additional observations, but have
not had a Philips radio collector provide any additional assistance.
My best analysis of the tube configuration and layout is as follows:
CK1, CF3, CBC1, CL4, CY1, and the C8 regulator - the layout
closely resembles a Philips 461U or 461HU or a derivative of the
Philips Gavotta model 272HU.


I would be most appreciative for any assistance, and add in closing
that there are a few other unusual observations. I posted an item
to the Netherlands Oude Radio forum in early October, and have
received NO replies yet.
I apologize for not correcting the above statement since I received the response from Mr Henk Kremer from the Netherlands Oude radio forum on 22 Nov - in which he stated the most likely tube configuration
. . . . . ."De buizenbezetting lijkt mij CK1-CF3-CBC1-CBL1-CY1 en een stroomregelbuis met pennen,zie ookhet plaa
Henk Kramer 22. Nov 2005 18:29:00

Respectfully,
Robert Sarbell Attachments:

• Front view (98 KB)
• Rear (106 KB)
• Chassis (123 KB)
• Underside (141 KB)
• ID Plate (89 KB)

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Robert,
            if you can contact Ross Paton of Auckland, New Zealand, via the New Zealand Vintage Radio Society ---------
http://www.nzvrs.pl.net/aaa/officers.htm
I believe he knows a bit about Philips in the Southern Hemisphere,
and just might be able to help. (ask him nicely, 'cos I think he's a busy man!)

Regards,
                John.

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John,

Request for information has been forwarded to the NZVRS officers email address.

Please note that I have also been in contact with one of RMorg newer members from South America, and he agrees with my estimation that the Philips "AL-series" radios were produced in Argentina. He also stated that he understood they were not "made for export"; however, owners or collectors from other countries could come into possession of some of these models over the years.

The service publications though are normally very difficult to acquire, unless the owner has received it with the original radio (or can find the technical library of the original production facility) or the technical documents have been made available through great organizations like our own RMorg. I am speaking from 15 years experience with the technical publications division from Lockheed Martin - from whence the master data library has been maintained for various models of the same airframe.

Considering the vast operation of the NZVRS net, I found it lacking in a good "search engine" capability. I am sure I must have been looking in the wrong place.

I wish to offer apologetic remarks for the less than complimentary comment about the NZVRS net above - I have since concluded that there are VERY few radios which are exceedingly difficult to trace to their precise origin.

Since my 21 November posting I have determined that the radio has a tuning condenser and ON/OFF-Volume control switch made in the USA. Additionally, the tone control potentiometer was also made in the USA.

It is conceivable that these components may NOT have been part of the original production - who can say?? If they were part of the original production, why were the components NOT furnished by Philips to the production facility in Argentina - unless the radios were produced during the period from early 1940 until some years later?

Respectfully,
Robert

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Several very close possibilities, but nothing absolute at this time. Have acquired a complete set of C-series and U-series tubes to configure the radio after ascertaining the correct tube layout. I have examined approximately 50 radios from the late 1930s up to 1941 with emphasis on the AC/Dc models and specifically the 200-250volt models.

If a VERY OLD oil-filled electrolytic capacitor in the power supply (32uF at 350V)
has not lost any fluid, and the metal plates appear to be in "like new" condition,
can the capacitor be "reformed" (after refilling with the proper electrolyte and being resealed), to perform as well as an NOS unit??


Regards,
Robert Attachments:

• Oil filled capacitors (56 KB)

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Hi Robert,
What about Philips Deutschland model Matador GW, which has exactly the tube setup and timing too, but unfortunately no picture. Have a look:
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/philips_matador_gw.html

BR
Ake

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Ake,

Thank you for taking some time to look. . . . .I apologize for not posting some of the candidates that I have reviewed and tentatively rejected for various reasons.
I have a serious doubt about the output tube - the CL4 - because the radio appears as though it has not been "altered" yet, the tube socket and grid cap will NOT accept a tube of that heighth. About 105mm is the maximum that I have to put there.

The following list are only the "Philips" radios I have reviewed (and examined all of the schematics); yet they all have more resistors and capacitors than the AL161.

PHILIPS MODEL NO. AND/OR NAME
272HU - GAVOTTA
535U
461U - MENUETTO
461HU - LOISIRS
461U-04 -
493U -
V4A/V4U -
V5A/V5U -
V6A/V6U -
V7A/V7U -
151A/U -
213U -
AL552H61 - from Argentina (1942)
AL644V - from Argentina (1942)



There are several US made components that continue to "aggravate" the search - the 2-gang tuning condenser, and the ON-OFF/Volume control switch, and the Tone control switch.

I am still examining some of the chasses from several other European producers - such as the Jura 151A (151U). And one or two other makers from the Americas.

Respectfully,
Robert

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Hi Robert,

I see that that you have already done quite broad examination about the origin of AL161. I don't have any knowledge of Philips radio manufacturing activities in Argentina before and during the WW2. My guesswork was just based to the "European" tube family, which Philips also used in some of their models. Might it be possible they did have some local assembly with "cosmetic" modification, especially if only some of components are American. The (wearable) parts you mentioned may be replaced during normal service work??

Well this is just useless speculation from my side. I hope you'll be successful in your detective work and can solve the case.

Best regards
Ake

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Hello Ake,

I may have more than 100 pages of information - from MANY files - even to reviewing the forums from radio collectors in South America to include Argentina, Brazil, and Chile. I also have visited forums associated with Philips production in the Australia, New Zealand, Netherlands, the UK, Portugal, Switzerland and the US.

I have even investigated some "possible" ventures between the US and some European countries after significant production changes occurred in the early 1940s after certain Philips facilities in the Netherlands were intentionally destroyed.

I have been advised by one collector in South America, that most (or many) of the radios that were available for purchase in the early 1940s were primarily received in chassis form and the radios were "assembled" as some of them were done in Portugal; and only the bakelite or wood cabinets, and the dials and grill cloths were fashioned in Argentina.

I have not been able to locate specific data which refers to the codification schemes that correlate to the "Assignment and Identification" of prefix letters during the WWII period from early 1940 up to the post-1945 redesignation schemes.

I am still slowly researching our National Archive files to read from the multitude of files available for documents which may relate to "sensitive" subjects to help focus in on this mysterious radio.

I will admit that the power cord is actually identifed with the country of Argentina, and most certainly the dial face was produced there also.

The actual wiring diagram of the radio from the entry of the power cord to the chassis and all the way through to the speaker most closely matches that of the Jura 151U - since the radio has NO power transformer, and there is no voltage switching capability from the 200-250volts. Excess voltage must be accounted for with the ballast lamp.

Respectfully,
Robert

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Hello Robert,

you thought the tube lineup of this radio is CK1, CF3, CBC1, CL4 and CY1, - but now you noticed a CL4 would not fit because of its height ?

- The solution may be easy: put an EL2 in, this will fit !

I also think, this radio was fitted entirely with tubes of the red E - series, with the only exception of the rectifier, which has to be a CY1 or CY2.

 

The tube lineup most probably was:

FC:             ECH3 (newer) or EK2 (older)

IF:               EF9 or EF5

AF+Det:      EBC3

Outp.:         EL2

Rect.:         CY1 or CY2

 

Any of these E- tubes have the heater ratings 6.3 V / 0.2 A, which makes it possible, to operate them in parallel or in series heater strings.

 

I suppose this radio was made before 1940. In this year the ECF1 was introduced, which allowed to save one tube for small radios, where the lineup then was: ECH3, ECF1, CBL1 (or CBL6 for 110V) and CY1 or CY2.

 

Best regards

JR

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Hello Jacob,

Thank you so very much for clarifying some doubts that I have been struggling with.

Since the radio is identified as being produced/assembled for the Argentine market, and the requirement to operate within the 200-250V AC/DC constraints, I had presumed I must use the C-series because the filaments are actually wired "IN SERIES". . . . I have confirmed that more than 2 months ago.

I also had strong feelings that the radio may have been produced before 1940 because the design favors so strongly the 1937 Zenith 5S126 - there is a very close resemblance.

Would there be any reason that the EL2 would not function correctly with C-series tubes to reduce the size of the ballast tube?? I thought that the tbe maker Dario had produced a CL2 with a heighth of only 105mm - I suppose not!

Since the chassis was designed for 200-250V AC-DC operation, I should ensure the CY1 or CY2 is wired to act as the voltage doubler??

I have closely been following every one of your forum postings as they relate to the A,C,E, and U tubes (whether they are in the red, or other series).

Respectfully,
Robert

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Hello Robert,

 

the equivalent tube to the CL2 by Dario was actually called UL2, which measures 122 mm height.
BTW, the CL2 has a 100 V screen, which is no good choice for 200 V operation.

 

Another option could be the CL1, as its height is only about 105 mm, but I doubt this too.

 

This radio calls for the red E - series, I can almost smell this ! Look at the tight positions of the tube sockets. If there were those fat C- tubes plugged in, they possibly may touch each other or touch filter cans or other components.

 

There are no any objections to operate the EL2 in a series heater string (nor any other tube of the red E - series with 0.2 A heater current). With exception of its heater ratings, the EL2 has the same characteristics as the CL1 and is recommended by Philips as replacement for it, as shown here in  1 

As those ballast tubes C1…C8 are fitted with side contact bases, they wouldn't  fit in this radio, as there is an European B4 socket in the chassis for this component.
I guess, once there was simply one of this birdcage-style plug-in resistors for this duty.

 

At 115 V line voltage it's a good idea to wire a CY2 as voltage doubler. The CY1 will fail for this operation, as it's only a single- diode (unless you add a silicon diode).

 

Best regards

JR

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Hello Jacob,

I agree that the C-series tubes must not have been installed. . . . there is not enough room for the CF3 between the IFT cans. Even the CK1 and CL4 look as though they should be on a "starvation diet" to fit in their expected locations.

I believe I may have a few of the large plug-in ballast resistors.

And, I have recently acquired one of the "uncommon" CY1 tubes, that Herr Wolfgang Bauer recently discussed in a forum, which has the capability to be used like a full wave rectifier or as the voltage doubler. I examined the tube under a worklight magnifier and it is exactly as he described.

I have even tested it on my Hickok 752A (with a P8a-Octal adapter that I made) - and the tube has the dual diode configuration.

Respectfully,
Robert

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Hi there,
it is amazing how engaged the matter is dealt with. So many contributions, but:  why the hack has nobody ever considered to suggest the model for RMorg and started posting from there ?

kindest regards
KoBi

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Good Afternoon Konrad,

I have thought seriously many times to submit the radio for inclusion: however, I have intentionally refrained in order to possibly allow some of our South American members to help confirm or deny the existence of any Philips ALxxx series radios. I continue to remind myself that it is most unusual to find so many "oddities" on the radio - US made major parts, then NO markings whatsoever to identify the makers of the resistors, capacitors, coils, and even the 2 power supply electrolytic capacitors.

I have not received the first email or post to the thread to convince me that I have a "bona fide" Philips produced or licensed radio. I have seen only 3 photos of Philips radios with a model prefix of AL - and none of the photos depict the rear panel.

I am also perplexed that not one Philips collector that I have communicated with can discuss the codification of those radios which may have been produced or assembled in very limited numbers.

I have been intentionally waiting to receive some final replies from an elderly radio repair technician from Buenos Aires (he is not internet capable) through a gentleman who is agreed to help me as much as he can.

I understood from past experience, that the radio could be submitted for approval by any member who has some photographic data to submit. The photographs that I submitted were posted primarily to obtain a schematic.

Respectfully,
Robert
NB: Even the year(s) of production could easily range from 1936 or 1937 up to 1945.

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Dear Robert,

I am really impressed of the research work You have done. Just go ahead and propose the model using all available data. Some doubts may be put into remarks, and the matter is always open for future improvements and corrections.
You would then be in the position to upload photos to the model.

Looking forward to your contribution
I remain
cordially
KoBi

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Dear Kobi,

Thank you for the kind words - I had an alzheimer's moment when I submitted the data - I realized months ago there was no entry within the country of Argentina for any manufacturer. So, when I submitted the data I did not voluntarily choose Ungarn (Hungary) as the Philips manufacturing site.

I originally wanted to confirm that the FAPESA was a valid "maker" for the few Philips Argentine radios that I have seen. I am hoping that 1 or 2 of our Argentine members will be able to confirm the presence of PHILIPS in their country for the mutual benefit of all members of RMorg.

Respectfully,
Robert
NB: I also wish to add that I have seen one radio from Brazil which used the international octal based tubes in the original European P8A bases - using a very high quality "adapter" which had been made to allow this interchange.

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Dear Robert, you make me work extra time, and my hands are full of dust of old papers.
This is what I found.
I hope that help you

Saludos Mario Attachments:

• philips válvulas (135 KB)

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Dear Mario,

Thank you so very much for solving the mystery of the original tube configuration of the AL161.

It is of great help to properly complete the restoration, and it also provides the "official documentation" to enter the information into the database.

I would be pleased if you submit (to the Administrators) the tube lineup as a suggested change to the Philips AL161 model.

If you go to the AL161 model page, you can submit the tubes as they are shown on your master booklet. Click on the "Add information to model or forum text" in the bottom left corner of the model page, and enter the tube numbers.

Without your extra efforts, the Radiomuseum archives for the Philips radios (or even other makers) would have been non-existent.

Respectfully,
Robert

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Dear Administrators,

Thank you so much for uploading the tube configuration for the AL161.

Senor Candelarezi has provided a veritable impetus for hopefully many more radios to be added by some of our members from the southern hemisphere - congratulations!

Respectfully,
Robert

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Hello Jacob,

I apologize for not expressing earlier my appreciation for your truly professional evaluation of the "mystery" radio from the southern hemisphere. Of the MANY schematics that I reviewed, NOT ONE had the tube lineup that you identified in thread 9 above.

Are the 2 x 8038-07 lamps to be considered as consuming 10 volts at 0.2A??

Respectfully,
Robert

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I like very much how this finding has been realised. This is real international understanding and help - and that is what I hoped very much to achieve when I began building up this organisation. Thanks you for your strong commitment.

At the beginning of this thread I wondered if anybody will post the model - perhaps with only few data which is sufficient - if one tells the admin in the remark field that one has the set and wants to post questions to be able to enhance it. I was on the edge to interfere but Konrad was doing the job any member could and should do. When we have a set and are not very aquainted with RMorg then we do not think of posting a new model first, this is quite normal. And if we would not interfere there would never be such a nice database and catalogue - I even dream of a real work of refference (reference book).

The tube line up is the first one here: EK2 EF5 EBC3 EL2 CY1 - no model before had it. And also with ECH3 or EF9 you will not match a model - but if you omit the "heating in line" you come to results - and even find schematics: You type only EK2 EF5 EBC3 EL2 into the "Search for Antique Radios by fitted vacuum tube sets" and you get 20 results, mainly from France (11) but also from Austria, Switzerland and the Netherlands - besides now Argentina. 11 similar schematics are available - but naturally we will try to find the one for the AL161. I would suggest to change the year to 1936-1938 (?) because the EK2 appeared in 1936 and was replaced in Feb. 1939 by the ECH3. The EK2 was most probably not used after 1939. It can well be that we have some wrong entries concerning the EK2 (after 1939) for other models - or are there exceptions?

It would be great if Robert checked his list if the models are there (post 6) and could stay in touch with Mario to see if he could introduce the other models from Argentina on his list (post 17).

I will now move this thread to the model and close it - hopefully we can use it as reference how things can be solved here. I can inform that in January we had accepted 20 new members from the USA (Nov. = 6, Dec. = 8). Some of them came under option 1 which makes me hope that we will see more activity in English in the forum and some enhancing for US models with photos or data soon?

I wrote to some new members about the award one gets, when posting photos to models (type "own collection"): Type in a name of collection (you find under "collections") to Google and see yourself. Mostly they apear as "Number One" - even Edith Mills - for whom one gets more than 2 Million results ... I naturally name Konrad Birkner because he shows many US models ... ;-:

By the way: Each member can ask for reopening a thread if he/she presents good reasons - or can open a new one. There are also different reasons to close - like "problem well solved", "gets otherwise too long", "has run off topic" etc.

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